(chainsaw buzzing)
(ax smacking)
(chainsaw buzzing)
(ax smacking)
(men yelling)
(tree creaking)
- Following the Strawberry Fire Fatality
in Great Basin National Park,
it was a tree strike fatality.
The risk management committee forwarded
the safety action plan
to the Hazard Tree Subcommittee.
And asked us to look into a few
of the safety action plan items.
Primarily involving improving training
for sawyers and dealing with hung trees.
We started to have discussions with hotshot crews,
sawyers, fuels crews and really trying to get our fingers
on what are these pressures that are getting the sawyers
to the point of even putting the saw
into these kinds of really more complex situations.
- So one of my major goals
of this project is getting the message
when a sawyer gets into a situation
that at any point they're not comfortable
it's okay to walk away.
And whatever, discuss other options
maybe you bring in a sawyer that's more qualified
or comfortable to cut it down.
Maybe you flag it off,
you go through your list of other options.
But I think in the hotshot crews and fire in general
there's been this thought
that if you start cutting that tree you own it
and you see it through
and I think we need to change that.
- There actually has been quite a bit of change culturally.
I would think and I think we're trying to foster
that even more so in the saw program now on the crew.
It's more open environment to kinda speak your mind
if you have concerns, questions
you're not gonna be looked down upon,
you're not it's more
expected that you would ask questions
and speak up if you have something of concern
that you wanna get out.
- What we wanna do is get to that point where,
okay things didn't go as planned,
let's have that quick discussion on the ground
and it doesn't have to be a long,
drawn out risk management analysis or anything.
It's hey things didn't go as I planned,
do we still move forward with trying to get this tree
on the ground or are we good to go?
Do we flag it off and walk away at this point?
- So some of the alternatives,
walk away, flag it off,
you know you can rather than mop it up,
just monitor it.
You can burn it out,
you can use mechanical means.
And there's probably some others in there as well
but those are the more common ones.
My concern is when you have environment on a crew
or anywhere else,
where people may not feel that comfort level
and they'll start cutting and getting in a situation
where they're gonna regret it or something is gonna go wrong
and you're gonna have a bad outcome.
- I think the biggest thing I always tell them,
to make sure that they feel comfortable doing
what they're doing.
And if they don't,
if they have any questions I like to have an open forum
to kinda teach them what I know and what I've experienced.
So I like to tell them to speak up.
Like ask me questions if you have,
if you're not sure on how to do something
I wanna show you how to do it.
- As far as the communication process goes of
how to communicate that,
you would still communicate that up the chain of command.
I mean I guess it depends on your position on the crew,
your confidence as a sawyer.
- Culturally, it's changed.
It's not perfect yet but it's changed for the better
and we're having more people speak up
and that's no accident
it's because we're talking about that a lot,
a lot of discussion on it.
Another example of change is like the geysering.
And you know for me I go running south
three four days a year
I still catch myself.
Traditionally opening up that fuel cap
but when I watch our new sawyers,
they've got it.
Guys, first year, second year crew members,
we're hammering on it.
This is no different than that.
But we need to address it at my level,
at crew boss level and also type two crews as they spent
a lot of time thinking about the pressures that they have.
Support your people to identify and verbalize
when they have those concerns.
But that's again not an accident
they need to be coached on that up front.
(man yelling)
- Anybody getting into fire
usually has certain personality traits
that attract them to the job
that being they want the challenge,
they want to solve problems,
they want to be aggressive and good at their job.
They wanna learn quickly
and they wanna prove themselves,
and prove their ability.
- I would rather see us develop
the discussion about hey can we just leave it.
Instead of always feeling like once you start working
on that tree you own it to the ground.
I think that's where some of our biggest
sort of stigma is.
Allow our professional sawyers to make judgment calls,
communicate those decisions,
and move on as opposed to just feel like they have
to get that tree on the ground.
- I think that it just comes down to the sawyer
and what they're comfortable with,
their communication with their saw boss
and their saw program as to
what type of liberties they can take on their own
because it might be in that scenario
where you get the opportunity to try something new.
It's safe and you have to know the intent
of your saw program
as to whether or not you can take that liberty.
- Clear and concise communication with confirmation
that is understood is very important
in everything that we do.
Not just falling or cutting line or using a chainsaw.
I think in every aspect of the job that intent really needs
to be communicated and received well
for us to be able to be successful.
- A lot of the fire line injuries associated
with trees and moving forward
and you guys have spent a bit of time talking about shifting
the culture especially for new folks coming in.
It starts with those early sawyers,
what type of habits they get coming into a program
as far as their confidence and their ability
and the situations
in which they're willing to put themselves in.
- Everybody has to build their own way
of how they're gonna cut and how they're gonna think,
what their process is gonna be.
So, I think exposing new crew members and new sawyers
to the different procedures or processes
that we all have as sawyers
really gives them a broad outlook
on how they can build their process.
- The process and the time it takes to put
a tree on the ground
is insignificant compared to
the time it would take to get somebody off the hill
in the event of an accident or a tree strike.
Take the time to come up with a plan,
check it, make sure everybody who's there
and involved is good with the plan,
confident in it.
And if you're not, then to step back and re-evaluate.
- We need to start thinking
about more personal responsibility.
We're aware of all the factors around us
and that we're creating as well.
We all need to stop and think about it
a little bit more before we just jump into doing it.
And I think that's where
that risk management comes into play.
- To me that resonates through the ears
because I look back on that experience
and I remind myself like don't get complacent,
don't think that you can predict what a tree's going to do
because it will surprise you.
(tree creaking)
The mentorship is part of the mitigation for that,
having a good experienced sawyer.
Take the time to communicate with your saw partner,
come up with a good plan with your crew,
and you'll get the job done.
And in the end it'll get done quicker
for having been slow and methodical
than to try and rush it through.
We talk about how slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
And I think that holds true in all cutting scenarios.
- The human factor is driving all of this
desire to improve your own experience level
that the human factor of hey I'm living a risk
that's gonna impact my crew or
the next crew coming down the line.
I think the sawyers end up feeling a responsibility
for the safety of the crew
and they take on a lot of risk
to make conditions whether it's mop up,
or hot line construction as safe as they possibly can
for their crew members that are coming behind
and the crew members from other crews that may follow.
That's where they're putting a lot of pressure on themselves
and you know why are we accepting extra risk as sawyers
above and beyond maybe what is perceived to be needed
to meet those objectives.
(gentle music)
- The technical end of it,
that's always improving for your whole career
you be a sawyer, seed certifier,
you're always gonna improve on that whatever your level.
But the toughest part of this equation is
the human factors and it's ego and intimidation
and all those things that are part
of our world whether we like it or not.
We have to acknowledge that
and say hey how can we overcome these barriers
and get these people to speak up
and all of us and us as supervisors also be receptive
that's the other half of it
besides that employee
talking about it
is that you have to an ear that's willing to listen.
And say hey I support this person
and you know if we want them all to come home
at the end of the day and at the end of the fire season
this is a big part of it
and I think it's an area we need to improve as well.
- It's okay to ask for help or just advice
like I'm not gonna just take the sale from you.
And I don't think any supervisor should do that.
We need to provide supervision to people
that haven't had those experiences yet
and let them maybe have those experiences.
- When we have success on a division
or on a small fire or on a huge fire.
When we have success it's because
we've been able to develop relationships on the fire line
to where crews working adjacent to each other
are communicating.
They're working together for that common objective
that red card qualification
says so much about your knowledge, skills and abilities
as a fire fighter that it's highly coveted
and it's probably one of the most passionate discussions
that you'll hear on fires about chainsaw stuff.
That's cool we need to harness that,
that's a great skill set,
it's an incredibly important skill set in our job
and we need to harness that
and really take it to the next level of incorporating
some of that risk management decision making
and having some of those really experienced sawyers just go,
nope I'm not touching that.
It's fine the way it is,
let's flag it and not even mop up underneath this thing.
It's too wooly.
Instead of just I think I can do it
because the I think I can do it
its where we get into trouble.
(gentle music)